The Great Grape Debate


[Raisins] [ This series of exchanges happened on the CAOM listserver in April of 1996. For those gentle readers who think that only kids have fun under the umbrella of OM, think again. When the pressure comes off after successfully planning and holding the regional and state competitions, look out. [Raisins]

The document has been edited to remove most of the redundant inclusions and header information that doesn't add to the debate. Also pruned were some interesting threads that were started by an exchange on pin trading.]

The debate is quite lengthy. The document has been divided by the day of the postings. The index below will let you catch up if you don't read it all at once.

Lynn Macey
Day 1 - The innocent beginnings
Day 2 - Post early and often
Day 3 - It is getting pretty nasty
Day 4 - Both sides near victory
Day 5 - Not much more to add
Day 7 - Ok, they took the weekend off
Day 8 - Happy Birthday Lauren!
Day 16 - It isn't dead!
Day 17 - Yo, Bubba!
Day 18 - Another reason NOT to choose MSN


Date: 1 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@HP.COM)
Subject: Attention CA pin traders

************* Attention CA coaches headed for WF *************

I don't know about your kids, but my team is almost totally focused on preparing for PIN TRADING at WF! I have permission from the people who control the California Raisin trademark to use them in tastefully designed pins (after they review and approve the design). I have about 15 pages of sample CA Raisin artwork that greatly facilitates pin design. If your kids have any interest in designing a pin around this theme, either email me at bill@ballen.nsr.hp.com or give me a call at (510)-460-1622 and I'll be happy to fax you what I have.
We have a pin designed around CRUNCH! where a CA Raisin carrying a structure is about to get turned to jelly by a pool ball. Last years CA Raisin pin traded very well (although it was a 2-part pin -- which is supposed to be an attraction). If there were CA Raisin pins for multiple problems, I suspect they would support the tradability of each other rather than compete. However, I'm no pin trading expert.

If your kids have an interest in our pin, let me know and I'll send/fax a copy of the design. I'm still getting quotes for pin manufacture. We're using a more expensive technique (because it yields what I feel is a better looking pin). The quotes so far imply I would have to charge about $1.50/pin to keep from losing money on the deal.

I am reluctant to order more pins than I'm sure we can trade this year (since the money is all coming out of my pocket) -- so let me know soon!! I expect to place a firm order by the end of the week.

Take care.
Bill Allen


Date: 1 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: Attention CA pin traders

Bill,

This is all meant to be read tongue in cheek and in the spirit of good fun that pin trading is.....

You realize we in NY State....our OM Motto for the past several years being "THE BEST OF THE BUNCH!" on a field of luscious grapes think that raisins are just a bunch of dried up grapes don't you?

Take care,
Dee


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM )
Subject: Re: Attention CA pin traders

Dee, Dee, Dee...

Oh dear, are you way behind. Perhaps you missed the part about the props being ... well, compact. We can extend this to shrunken or even shriveled. Raisins, bless their little hearts, are the true fruit of the competition. A bunch of compact grapes they are and shall remain. Dried up. Hah!

This was not influenced by the California Raisin Growers Association in any way. I have no connection to them at all. Ok, I used to be part of the team that sold them computers but, other than that, my conscience is clear :-)

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@HP.COM )
Subject: grape vs raisin

Dee --

This reply is intended in the same good nature as yours ...

Does everyone prefer grape juice to a fine wine? A raisin can be thought of as a grape with experience and maturity! If you remove the "boring" elements from a grape (water), you get a raisin. Sounds like raisins represent the best of what a grape has to offer -- only more concentrated!

If you take a grape and bask it in warm sunshine, you get a raisin! It's been in the 70s to low 80s here for the last month, how's the weather been in N.Y? ;-) Have I thrown a "low blow"?

Take care,
Bill Allen


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: Attention CA pin traders

Lynn.....

I knew that I would get more silly comments from my dried up grapes statement! Thanks for the giggle....

By the way....the NY pin is DEFINITELY going to cause quite a stir at World Finals this year.....EVERYONE is going to want one....but it's top secret!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: grape vs raisin

Oh Bill....

It has been decidedly chilly here in NY (especially the portion of NY that I live in just south of Buffalo)....but you know....we have no earthquakes, mudslides, Santa Anna Fires...just incredibly beautiful white snow....When was the last time Currier and Ives did a greeting card with a palm tree on it?

As far as the raisin issue goes.....as you so rightly said, fine wine is distilled from GRAPES...not shriveled up, left too long on the vine, raisins! Sure a raisin can be considered a grape with maturity and experience....you mean OVER THE HILL don't you?

(this whole conversation is such a giggle!)

So long as we are all in a good mood.....what's your favorite all time WF pin? (let's try to keep association pride out of it!)....Mine is the NHOM pin that features the Nhom in a Mississippi Belle dress holding a Georgia Peach in his hand....LOVE THAT PIN! Those folks in NH sure have a sense of humor! (Must be all the snow they get! ;-)

Take care,
Dee


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@BALLEN.NSR.HP.COM)
Subject: grapes, raisins and pins

Dee --

I'm a believer in the value of diversity. I love chilled grapes on a warm spring day, but I wouldn't put them in a pocket or a backpack. I'd think you'd appreciate the fact that raisins left in a freezing car won't turn to goo like grapes! For me, I'll leave it that grapes and raisins are different in important ways, but wonderfully similar in others.

Take care,
Bill Allen


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: grape vs raisin

In other words, when things finally green up you will have used the snowmobile to get to the airport to head to Iowa for World Finals? We keep our snow in the mountains. I think it is a law. Last year, folks were skiing on the Fourth of July.

Currier and Ives also thought that Ohio was "The West". Those of us in California recognize that they didn't get out very much.

When was the last time you saw ordinary GRAPES dancing to "I Heard It Thru The Grapevine"? Come on Dee, put on those soft shoes, grab your cane and those dark sunglasses and start dancin' 'round that computer. You aren't OVER THE HILL are you? Da.da.da.Da.Da.DAH!

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Bruce V. Urban (URBANBV@NYSOMR.EMI.COM)
Subject: The Great Grape "Debate"

I can't resist!
Raisins are just Geriatric GRAPES!
Have you ever stomped on raisins?
Show me a raisin in the Fruit of the Loom!
Then of course there is GRAPE flavored Kool-aide, Jello, gum, juice and . . .
raisin pudding!

All those great Grape movies:
The Grapes of Wrath
The Grape Escape
The Grape Train Robbery
The Grape Gatsby

Let us not forget:
Raisin Bran but GRAPE NUTS!
MOBY GRAPE not Moby Raisin!
Quest for the Holy Grape but avoid the raiSIN!
Cognito, ergo GRAPE (I think, therefore Grape)
Eureka - I found it (motto of California I believe, what do you think they found? Gold, no they had to pan for that, but GRAPES were resplendant on the vine)

A moment of levity at least once a day (one of the Urban mottos)
thanks I needed that!

Bruce


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Bill Dube' (bdube@BOULDER.NIST.GOV)
Subject: Grapes/Raisins

Would I be the most likely person to bring up "sour grapes"?

Bill Dube'
bdube@boulder.nist.gov


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: grape vs raisin

Gee Lynn....

I hate to resort to this but......(in the spirit of good rivalry and good fun....what the heck!)...

Which would you rather put into your mouth....something round and firm and juicy, or something wrinkled, shriveled, and dry???

You know, no one ever mistook a grape in their oatmeal to be a dead fly.....

(You would have thought that with all this joking around about the dominant fruit in OM the Georgia Peach contingent would be coming out of the woodwork!!!)

HEY NEW HAMPSHIRE...are you reading this? I'm out numbered by these California Fruits!!!

You know a raisin is just the cousin of the prune....and you know what happens if you eat too many of those......just some (ahem!) food (ahem!) for thought.....

('tis to giggle!)
Take care,
Dee


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: The TOP 10 reasons grapes are better than raisins (part 1)

10 - Grapes don't get stuck in your teeth

9 - Have you ever tried to drink wine made of raisins

8 - Grapes are alive, raisins are dead as door nails

7 - Grapes grow in clusters, raisins are plopped into boxes

6 - 3 out of 4 Monkees prefer grapes

5 - Grapes are born on the vine but raisins are dried on the rack

4 - Grapes are easier to hit with a baseball bat

3 - Grapes are found in nature, raisins are converted by Dole....no not that Dole, although there is a resemblance!

2 - Grapes of Wrath is a catchier title than Raisins of Wrath

1 - Raisins are like dried up old prunes who sing the blues but grapes are plump juicy young things that dance in your mouth

More to come......


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: The Great Grape "Debate"

But Bruce, you missed:

Raisin Bar cookies
Raisin in the Sun
Raisin' Arizona
Raisin' the dead
Barn Raisin'
Raisin' the roof
Raisin' to new heights
Raisin' consciousness
Age of Raisin
Raisined debate
Singing in the RAIsiN
The RAIsiN falls mainly on the plain
Raisindrops keep falling on my head
Mt. Raisiner
The RAIsiN Forest
Moon Raisin
Cry me a Raisin
Chocolate covered Raisins

Then of course:
Henry the Grape
Forrest ("Life is like a box of chocolate covered raisins...") Grape
Grape Expectations
The Grape Mall
The Grape Debate (grapes...raisins...grapes...raisins...grapes...raisins)
The Grape Outdoors

In rebuttal:
Grape are just raisins that aren't done. A raisin is not geriatric. An over the hill grape is best thrown out while an over the hill raisin has a nice chewy texture that lasts and lasts.

Stomping raisins is, of course, silly. Stomping grapes is, in this day and age, also silly. Then again, that last bottle of Welches that I drank did seem a little, well....

The correct term is Fruit of the Vine, not Fruit of the Loom. I have never seen anyone plant and harvest looms. Fruit of the Vine is always grape juice to us Presbyterians, by the way. It is never wine. Apparently fermentation was not discovered until a few centuries after Christ's birth.

Grape Nuts contain no grapes. Unless you subscribe to the theory that grapes are nuts. That will, of course, bring down the ire of yet another agricultural industry here in California.

Grape flavored Kool-Aid is correctly referred to as Purple. That is it's true flavor...Purple. Ask any kid. "what flavor do you want, Red or Purple?" .The response will be ....

Red, over half the time. :-)

It is not raisin pudding, it is Raisin CUSTARD. A far more noble dessert. Even reduced to a just pudding, the raisin is superior. Grape Pudding? You must be joking.

The gold was here. The grapes, like most of the people were imported. This brings to mind that when I'm in New York and want in imported wine, I'm not talkin' France!

And of course, a hangover is a Wrath of Grapes!

Please note. Concord Grape pie was given to us by God. That is the only explanation for why it tastes so good.

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM )
Subject: Re: grape vs raisin

Dee and Bruce ganging up on poor ol' lynn say:

> Gee Lynn....
>
> I hate to resort to this but......(in the spirit of good rivalry and
> good fun....what the heck!)...
>
> Which would you rather put into your mouth....something round and firm
> and juicy, or something wrinkled, shriveled, and dry???

Let me get back to you, OK?

>
> You know, no one ever mistook a grape in their oatmeal to be a dead
> fly.....

This is a good time for the squeamish to look the other way.

Still here? Ok, I warned you. When my daughter was about a year old, we fed her oatmeal with golden raisins. No molars so the raisins went down whole. Any question that raisins were at one time grapes was dispelled when they returned fully plumped in her diaper. This is a real shock until you determine what those...things....are!

> (You would have thought that with all this joking around about the
> dominant fruit in OM the Georgia Peach contingent would be coming out of
> the woodwork!!!)

At no time in this discussion have you cast any disparaging remarks at the peach crowd. They are clearly distracted by the fact that they have their own movie coming out soon. [ James and the Giant Peach ]

> HEY NEW HAMPSHIRE...are you reading this? I'm out numbered by these
> California Fruits!!!

And nuts!

Bad news guys. I've converted them. They stayed at my house for the weekend. Ha Ha!

>
> You know a raisin is just the cousin of the prune....and you know what
> happens if you eat too many of those......just some (ahem!) food (ahem!) > for thought.....

Drink too much of those grapie squeezin's and we know what happens too!

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM )
Subject: Re: The TOP 10 reasons grapes are better than raisins (part 1)

> 10 - Grapes don't get stuck in your teeth

No but you don't have to pit raisins

> 9 - Have you ever tried to drink wine made of raisins

Out here we make wine out of anything. Ask Jill from NH how she liked the bouquet of the garlic wine that she took home.

> 8 - Grapes are alive, raisins are dead as door nails

Place a grape and a raisin on the kitchen counter. Return in one week. Which will you eat?

> 7 - Grapes grow in clusters, raisins are plopped into boxes

Grapes hang in bunches. Raisins prize their individuality.

> 6 - 3 out of 4 Monkees prefer grapes

Actually the Monkees preferred Dorritos brand corn chips. Monkeys may indeed prefer grapes but, projecting that to a human sample is not good research.

> 5 - Grapes are born on the vine but raisins are dried on the rack

Thru suffering comes enlightenment.

> 4 - Grapes are easier to hit with a baseball bat

Then you clean the bat. Raisins leave no messy residue.

> 3 - Grapes are found in nature, raisins are converted by Dole....no not
> that Dole, although there is a resemblance!

Using grapes and an old prune in the same argument leaves me speechless.

> 2 - Grapes of Wrath is a catchier title than Raisins of Wrath.

The correct movie reference is Raisin in the Sun. See doesn't that sound better?

> 1 - Raisins are like dried up old prunes who sing the blues but grapes are
> plump juicy young things that dance in your mouth

Yes. But, can grapes carry a tune at all?

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: The TOP 10 reasons grapes are better than raisins (part

> I love the latest correspondence. You can tell when the "pressure" is off
> and you have either won or lost and everyone is think of World -- By the way,
> can't help myself
>
> How about those KENTUCKY WILDCATS!!!!
>
> A true BLUE FAN HERE!!
>
> How do you think a pin with a KY Wildcat would trade????

I will trade you one small box of raisins and a future on Dee's grapes. I can guarantee the raisins but, the grape will have to wait. Just between you and me, grapes need warmth to do much. Snow on the ground is not indicative that it is warm in New York yet.

By the way, it is a little chilly here today. I thought about wearing a jacket to lunch. I decided that 50 yards in 65 degrees won't kill me. :-)

lynn


Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

-Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave
-Grapes bounce
-If raisins were so wonderful...they'd grow naturally like grapes
-Grapes come in a variety of colors...raisins come in brown, brown, and maybe black
-For Halloween you can peel grapes and they feel like eyeballs...you can't even peel a raisin
-When you throw grapes against a hard wall you get a satisfying explosion, when you throw raisins against a hard wall you get a wimpy *ping*
-It's easier to see grapes to juggle with because their bigger
-When your mouth is dry grapes will satisfy you...raisins just stick to your teeth.
-Frozen grapes taste like a mini-snow cone....frozen raisins taste like frozen raisins.
-They make fruit drinks out of grapes...you ever heard of Raisin Oceanspray?
-When wealthy kings of the Nile were being pampered...they ate grapes offered by servants...raisins were probably served in the dungeon
-When throwing grapes into your mouth, if you miss grapes don't hurt... you can poke your eye out with a raisin.

And of course if you are into spirituals, what could be better than Amazing Grapes!
You say you like Rock 'n' Roll.....Grape Balls of Fire!
Magic your thing...top the Grape Houdini!
Architecture?...the Grape Wall of China!
Oceanography?...The Grape Barrier Reef!
Geography?...The Grape Basin!
Empires?....Grape Britain!
Dogs?....Grape Dane!
Suffering?....The Grape Depression!
Endangered species?...The Grape Horny Owl!
Bodies of Water?...The Grape Lakes!

In every form of human endeavor there are references to the noble grape!!! Raisins??? Do they have a whole different variety of fruit named for them??? Try GRAPEfruit! Did you think that was named after raisins???

Have a GRAPE day!
Dee & Bruce (with help from our daughter Lauren!)

Date: 2 Apr 1996
From: Marshall Anderson (m1anders@PEAK.ORG)
Subject: Raisins vs grapes

It's nice to see such light hearted fun on the list. As the Home of Will Vinton, the creator and inspiration for the great California Raisins, I felt I had to jump in and help defend the honor of our sister western state. You don't see giant California grapes on tv or in cartoons do you? That's because the grapes would get squished flat, raisins are hardy souls they can stand the abuse of long backpack trip and being ignored for months in your cupboard ( can you imagine ignoring a bunch of grapes for month YUCK!!!!) Any way here's to Raisins.

Karen, Oregon


Day 3 - Date: 3 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: The Great Debate Rages On!!!

Marshall....

It's ok....you go ahead and gang up on we poor easterners! Sure! You can try to be one of those California Fruits and Nuts, but you know what I heard them say about Oregon......well.....they said you couldn't grow a raisin up there to save your lives....all that rain! You can defend them, but you really need to know that behind your back they are snickering at your rain....

We in the east of course, understand foul weather, and would welcome Oregonians with open arms...and baskets of Concord grapes...which by the way, is where Concord NEW HAMPSHIRE got it's name!

And the Battle of Concord....being a history teacher myself (really) I can tell you that was really about some upstarts trying to steal our GRAPES! (These Californians think just because they eat OLD fruit they know something about history!)

Why this year OM has even named a long term problem for our noble fruit...."Classics...GRAPE Impressions".....notice, even Dr. Sam thinks our fruit is a classic....what does he have to say about raisins? Let's look at it from an OM point of view....the Grape is original...unique...creative!

The raisin??? simply a tired ol' hitchhiked idea, an elaboration of the Grape perhaps...but nothing new and creative (certainly not NEW!)...Yes, while the raisin might be Outstanding OMer material for it's team spirit, the GRAPE is unique and creative, sounds like Ranatra Fusca to me!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 3 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

Yet another salvo in the raisin vs raisin wanna be wars.

> -Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave

Oh, this is a real plus. Let's all keep botanical bombs in our refrigerators. I am now prepared to declare grapes hazardous material and will require a Material Safety Data Sheet from any team using said explosives during an OM performance.

You have totally missed the sport of grape racing. Coat the bottom of your microwave oven with a thin layer of cooking oil. Pluck grapes from their stems and place on their sides in the oven. Wave a green flag and hit full power. More fun than the Indy 500. The desired result is for the liquid part of the grape to vaporize at the correct rate to produce a jet of steam out the little hole at the end to propel the grape across the floor of the oven. Too fast and it is time to clean the oven of little grape parts. Too slow and you get the electronicly intensified raisin.

> -Grapes bounce

They sure do. Off the table, onto the floor and under the counter. This requires one to get down on hands and knees to recover them. Have you looked under there? Would you eat anything that went there? Raisins, on the other hand, stay pretty much where they fall. Dust them off and you can pop them in your mouth for instant eating pleasure.

> -If raisins were so wonderful...they'd grow naturally like grapes

I'm sorry that you have missed part of the discussion. We have stipulated that raisins are indeed grapes. They grow naturally and, in fact, could become raisins on the vine if left entirely alone. Many grapes never have a chance to reach this higher level of grape consciousness know as "Raisin". No, these grapes are brutally ripped from their comfortable vines, tossed haphazardly into large bins and taken to a house of horrors where the very essence is crushed out of their tiny little bodies. Their crushed remains are fed to animals who cannot appreciate the bounty laid before them.

Depending upon the type of grape that has been so brutally savaged, the resulting juice may find its way into mere beverage, beverage that bites back or packed into a lunch as a PBJ sandwich.

Raisins are treated with much more respect. Carefully removed from the vines and placed on trays they bask in the sunshine like a college student on spring break.

> -Grapes come in a variety of colors...raisins come in brown, brown, and
> maybe black

OK, grapes come in a rainbow assortment of, what? green, purple and red? This is variety? Raisins cover the spectrum from golden-amber thru the browns to almost black. Not unlike a 1970's condo.

> -For Halloween you can peel grapes and they feel like eyeballs...you
> can't even peel a raisin

Like I'd want to. All of the raisins in the house are starting to get uneasy about the potentially violent person electronically so close.

> -When you throw grapes against a hard wall you get a satisfying explosion,
> when you throw raisins against a hard wall you get a wimpy *ping*

OK, I am going to report you to the SPCG.

> -It's easier to see grapes to juggle with because their bigger

Look, juggling with grapes is easy. Start with apples, get good at it, move to apricots, get good at it, move to grapes, get good at it. Call me when you can do mustard seeds. Then I will be impressed.

> -When your mouth is dry grapes will satisfy you...raisins just stick to
> your teeth.

When my mouth is dry, I want something liquid. I don't think of grapes. " Honey! I've been digging the basement that you wanted. Boy am I thirsty, pass me those grapes!" I don't think so.

> -Frozen grapes taste like a mini-snow cone....frozen raisins taste like
> frozen raisins.

My mother warned me about colored snow. This would be green wouldn't it. I'll pass thank-you.

> -They make fruit drinks out of grapes...you ever heard of Raisin
> Oceanspray?

Maybe true but the Cranberry always gets top billing. That bothers you a little doesn't it? Why couldn't it be Grapeberry? Because the grape didn't make the cut, that's why.

> -When wealthy kings of the Nile were being pampered...they ate
> grapes offered by servants...raisins were probably served in the
> dungeon

I've seen these guys. Wanna guess what they look like now? Raisins! Big ones!

> -When throwing grapes into your mouth, if you miss grapes don't hurt...
> you can poke your eye out with a raisin.

Not only violent but clumsy too. I'll give you some advice. When you are working on the juggling act that we discussed earlier, please skip the chain saw part.

> And of course if you are into spirituals, what could be better than
> Amazing Grapes!

That saved a raisin like meeee!

> You say you like Rock 'n' Roll.....Grape Balls of Fire!

The fruit, formerly known as Grape!

> Magic your thing...top the Grape Houdini!

David Copperaisin!

> Architecture?...the Grape Wall of China!

The Basilica of St. Raisin

> Oceanography?...The Grape Barrier Reef!

Raisins, by their nature are dry. Very dry. Oceanography involves water. Raisins eschew that.

> Geography?...The Grape Basin!

The Amaraisin River!

Interesting that you bring this one up. Grapes are at a distinct disadvantage. There is Grapeland and Grapevine in Texas, a Grapeview in Washington, a Grapeville in Pennsylvania and another Grapevine in Kentucky. Notice that there is nothing named just Grape. Things about grape but not Grape. Well, hold on to your hats, there is a Raisin, Texas!

> Empires?....Grape Britain!

The Franco-Raisin Empire

> Dogs?....Grape Dane!

The Raisin Terrier!

> Suffering?....The Grape Depression!

We already determined that you are into suffering.

> Endangered species?...The Grape Horny Owl!

Recovery assured. Feed them raisins!

> Bodies of Water?...The Grape Lakes!

Lake Raisin Superior
Lake Huraisin
Lake Michiraisin
Lake Ontariraisin
and Lake Erie Grape

> In every form of human endeavor there are references to the noble
> grape!!!

Friends come and go but enemies tend to accumulate. Ever hear of the WCTU or Carrie Nation? These folks have a thing about grapes or, rather against their use as an imbibement. Yes, noble indeed.

> Raisins??? Do they have a whole different variety of fruit named for
> them??? Try GRAPEfruit! Did you think that was named after raisins???

No, only myopic botanist could confuse a large citrus with a grape.

> Have a GRAPE day!

Raisins Rule!

> Dee & Bruce (with help from our daughter Lauren!)

Now it is three to one. Is this outside assistance or what?

lynn


Date: 3 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@BALLEN.NSR.HP.COM)
Subject: voice of RAISIN

Hi All --

There is absolutely no RAISIN the NY and CAOMers should be insulting each other. We've all been RAISIN our kids to tolerate others and I often find myself pRAISIN public figures who try to be a voice of RAISIN rather than fear-mongers. I know the NYOMers have been fRAISIN their backsides off all winter and so must be in foul mood. However, this does not excuse their bRAISIN disregard for common courtesy in their attacks of the noble RAISIN. When I go gRAISIN through the pantry, I'm always happy to find a RAISIN or two to munch on. Is it tRAISIN for NYOMers to enjoy a RAISIN now and then? I think not! I find it nearly hair-RAISIN that we can't agree that a grape is simply an immature RAISIN.

Take Care
Bill Allen


Date: 3 Apr 1996
From: DeFrees Doug (DJDeFrees@AOL.COM)
Subject: Pins and raisins (but no grapes)

I don't know how to follow up on the stuff that's been going on here over the last few days. (Doesn't mean that I won't try, though.)

On the news last night I saw pictures of people marching down the street, many of them wearing tee shirts with a slogan that has been popular in California for many, many years. Not only was it on the tee shirts, but it appeared on signs in the yards of people's houses that they were marching by. What was this slogan?? "Boycott Grapes"!! (Have you ever heard of a raisin boycott ... I think not.)

Doug


Date: 3 Apr 1996
From: Marshall Anderson (m1anders@PEAK.ORG)
Subject: Grapes vs Raisins

Dee, how uninformed you are!!! Oregon is one of the preimer winegrape growing places in the World. Our Wines are World renown. And by the way it was 72 degrees today and expected to stay that way through Easter - not as wet or cold as you are I bet. Actually our weather is a big dark secret - all you folks just think it rains here all the time, that's because we DON'T want you to know the truth! Oregon is home to marvelous fruit like peaches and pears and apricots and gorgeous Red Delicious Apples. In fact why are we even worrying about some miserable little green or red ball that can shrivel into a little brown thing when we have so many other options!

Karen, Oregon


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Rick Rand (rrand@WATSON.IBM.COM)
Subject: Silly season, fruit and pins

I guess it is obvious that many areas have finished with their state finals. Silly season appears to be busting out all over the OM list server - and it feels good, doesn't it? After all, if you can't have fun with OM, then it loses its charm.

I do find it amusing that the folks from those new, upstart states to the west, have to try to defend their shriveled up "old" product. Apparently, when you have no history to speak of, a raisin is a suitable substitute. To those of us back here, in the original 13, we are much more refined, and above the cheap shots the Westerners have to take. Of course, I would not bring myself down to those levels. The main raisin for this, is that we apparently have many younger folks reading this list. They all believe that grown ups are totally serious, and we cannot do anything to break this grape belief. The very substance of our society, and life on Earth may shrivel and die (that wasn't a raisin reference was it?) if this facade should fall. :-)

Lynn, it is amusing that you accuse Dee and Bruce of OA by bringing in Lauren. What's with those ringers from the soggy northern states above you? HA!

Just notice the refreshing and delicious fruit bowls at the next banquet you attend. None of those ugly shriveled up raisin things, but undoubtedly a nice selection of luscious grapes.

Regards, Rick Rand


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Urban Lauren (lurban1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Silly season, fruit and pins

> The main raisin for this, is that we apparently have many
> younger folks reading this list. They all believe that grown ups
> are totally serious, and we cannot do anything to break this grape
> belief.

Speaking as the daughter of Bruce and Dee Urban (yep, I'm Lauren...run for your lives:) ) I can definitely say that most grown ups that I know are sometimes more childish then some of the Division I teams I judge. :)

> Lynn, it is amusing that you accuse Dee and Bruce of OA by bringing
> in Lauren. What's with those ringers from the soggy northern states
> above you? HA!

Dee and Bruce didn't bring me in...I came in by myself :) And since I am part of the team it's not outside assistance.

Lauren


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: The Great Debate Rages On!!!

So, Karen and Marshall. Comrades, fellow left coasters. Tell me. Are you shovelling that precip?

Didn't think so.

Yo! Right coast! That white stuff on the ground. Does it move unaided?

Didn't think so.

The subject tells it all. The Urbans missed a replacement that was so obvious that I am led to question their own faith in this matter. It is not "The Great Debate" that rages on, it is "The GRAPE Debate." I'm terribly sorry but you will receive no score on this posting because of the error.

How interesting it is that the birth of our country was because of a squabble over grapes, of all things. Who would have thought. In 1846, the US took California from Mexico because of grapes, right? Hey, I'm starting to catch on!

Yes, California is home to more nuts per square mile than most of the rest of the country. Fortunately we have most of the lawyers as well so that they will not go unprotected. I'm proud to say that I am one of them. Nut, not lawyer!

lynn


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Marshall Anderson (m1anders@PEAK.ORG)
Subject: the grape us vs. them debate

Aw Dee and Bruce, I was not recruited by Lynn rather I joined the fray on my own so there is no OA penalty involved. Besides I thought we were allowed 7 team members, who said you had to compete on your own? By the by our state tournament is April 13th and I am going nuts besides being State Director I am also the State Tournament Director ( yes I am crazy, anyone want my job they can have it!!) Any way Sam Micklus is coming and I swear anything that can go wrong is doing it right now. The comic relief I am getting from this grape debate has lighted the load. By the way, if the 13 original states were so perfect why did everyone want to leave them and come the "the promised lands" in the west!

Lynn - shovel rain, I think not, what rain? It is a gorgeous day here in Gods country. Expected high is 75 you can see for ever - no smog and the mountains are covered in snow. Wish I had the time to sit outside with a good book and soak up some rays!

Karen, going crazy in Oregon


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@HP.COM)
Subject: RAISIN d'etre

Hi All --

OM is all the cRAISIN CA. You might say it's our RAISIN d'etre. Some parents want their kids to be doctors or lawyers, but I'm RAISIN OMers! I will agree that there is one serious problem living in CA; if you drive towards the beach in the evening, the sun's RAISIN my eyes makes it a bit difficult to see. My parents live out in the country and they were telling me that their sheep were gRAISIN in the field and the donkey bRAISIN in the barn -- but then that isn't unique to CA. In fact, people everyone pRAISIN church, put their tRAISIN cupboards and get mad when the rope their hanging from fRAISIN the middle. CA often gets portRAISIN a bad light, but I think it's a great place.

Take care.
Bill Allen


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Cy Richard (Cygnome@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: the grape us vs. them debate

karen.....

from one state tournament director, to another..... i sure can appreciate what you mean about everything going wrong......

our tournament is on the 13th, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

i started out on monday with a list of things that HAD to get done..... tues and weds have come and gone and by george...... the list is longer instead of shorter.... nothing has been crossed off!!! and if this weren't enough, i am state spontaneous problem captain, so i had the head judges over the house for a spontaneous party, got everything all done, except for the problem from hell...... which is great just a scoring nightmare.........

anyway.... you are right the GRAPE debate has provided a needed comic relief !!!

my loyalties are with the original 13, being one of them, but, alas...... our slogan for this year is.....

"nhom RAISIN creativity for 15 years"...... uh,oh

cy


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: the grape us vs. them debate

Cy says:
> my loyalties are with the original 13, being one of them, but, alas...... our
> slogan for this year is.....

Cy, when you were here, I would have sworn that we are contemporaries. I never dreamed that you were old enough to be one of the original 13!

> "nhom RAISIN creativity for 15 years"...... uh,oh

You bet uh,oh! The California effect is so far reaching that it converted you and Jill before even you got here!

This all reminds me that yes, us upstart young wippersnapper states we sometimes forget our places. We should, of course defer to our elders but, then sometimes they don't know us very well either. They think that we don't know old. Well the CA State OM competition was held on grounds that are part of a Spanish mission founded in 1777. The city of San Jose was encorporated soon thereafter.

In the grape vs raisin debate I keep coming back to the fact that you have to be young enough to still have teeth to enjoy raisins.

lynn


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Denise Crawford (OMcoach@AOL.COM)
Subject: Grapes vs. Raisins

Although I am from California (3rd generation native born San Franciscan, but neither fruit nor nut) I will remain officially neutral on the subject of grapes/raisins, because I don't like either one very much.

I would be remiss, however, if I did not add this anecdote to the list:

A reliable source of giggles can be had by translating something from English to just about any foreign language, and then back to English again. The one that comes to mind is:

English: The Grapes of Wrath

to Japanese....(characters not available)

Back to English: The Angry Raisins

Totally unrelated, but also worth noting:
Sometime ago, Pepsi had a slogan, "Come alive, you're in the Pepsi Generation." which when given the treatment described above became, "Pepsi brings your dead relatives back to life."

Denise Crawford
(Formerly the Coach of Crunch, but has now returned to private life as a commoner)


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Urban Lauren (lurban1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

On Wed, 3 Apr 1996, Lynn Macey wrote:
> Yet another salvo in the raisin vs raisin wanna be wars.
>
> > -Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave
>
> Oh, this is a real plus. Let's all keep botanical bombs in our
> refrigerator. I am now prepared to declare grapes hazardous material
> and will require a Material Safety Data Sheet from any team using
> said explosives during an OM performance.

Now now...they're only dangerous if you put them in the microwave and turn it on...and we're all responsible enough to take all proper safety precautions (goggles and helmet if needed :) ). After being on a structure team I'm more worried about flying balsa wood then flying grape parts.

See but that is only half the fun...then you dye them with food coloring and get all kinds of very nice colors. A fireworks display in the safety and comfort of your own home.

> You have totally missed the sport of grape racing. Coat the bottom
> of your microwave oven with a thin layer of cooking oil. Pluck grapes
> from their stems and place on their sides in the oven. Wave a green flag and
> hit full power. More fun than the Indy 500. The desired result is for the
> liquid part of the grape to vaporize at the correct rate to produce a jet of
> steam out the little hole at the end to propel the grape across the
> floor of the oven. Too fast and it is time to clean the oven of
> little grape parts. Too slow and you get the electronicly intensified
> raisin.

See? Now could you get this much fun out of a raisin? :)

> Raisins, on the other hand, stay pretty much where they fall. Dust
> them off and you can pop them in your mouth for instant eating
> pleasure.

I assume the dust is from the ground and not because they're so old...then again I've had to dust off a few raisins or too.

> Raisins are treated with much more respect. Carefully removed from the
> vines and placed on trays they bask in the sunshine like a college student
> on spring break.

Unless of course you spend your spring break at home in good old Buffalo, where we make snowmen instead of sandcastles. :)

> > -When you throw grapes against a hard wall you get a satisfying
> > explosion,
> > when you throw raisins against a hard wall you get a wimpy *ping*
>
> OK, I am going to report you to the SPCG.

Me? This coming from people who take perfectly healthy grapes and leave them out in the hot sun for hours without water until they shrivel up and dry out until they are just a shadow of what they once had been :)

> > -When your mouth is dry grapes will satisfy you...raisins just stick to
> > your teeth.
>
> When my mouth is dry, I want something liquid. I don't think of
> grapes. " Honey! I've been digging the basement that you wanted. Boy am I
> thirsty, pass me those grapes!" I don't think so.

See but grapes satisfy both your hunger AND your thirst! A nice juicy bowl of grapes and not only are you not thirsty anymore but your hunger is gone!

> > -When throwing grapes into your mouth, if you miss grapes don't hurt...
> > you can poke your eye out with a raisin.
>
> Not only violent but clumsy too. I'll give you some advice. When you
> are working on the juggling act that we discussed earlier. Please
> skip of the chain saws part.

I don't need a juggling act. I'm a blue belt in karate. I don't juggle grapes...I break them bare handed!

> > Dee & Bruce (with help from our daughter Lauren!)
>
> Now it is three to one. Is this outside assistance or what?

I've always been on the team...up until now I was just a non-performing team member :)

And now...
Lauren


Date: 4 Apr 1996
From: Marshall Anderson (m1anders@PEAK.ORG)
Subject: Re: the grape us vs. them debate

Cy, What is this? A trader in their midst - one of the original 13 promotin "raisins", my oh my!

I was sitting in church tonight when I started remembering things I haven't done yet or forgotten for the tournament! I came home and made a panic list!!!


Date: 5 Apr 1996
From: Denise Crawford (OMcoach@AOL.COM)
Subject: Which came first...

All this talk about a grape
Has provided an escape
For the hassled volunteers
Using PVC and tape.

So our mouths are all agape
As this test is taking shape
'Cause it seems that we've forgotten
That adults can also trape

Down a path that is amazin'
(now I think my eyes are glazin')
As I ask the ancient question:
What came first, the grape or raisin?

Do I dare put a name to this drivel? OK, I'll take the risk!

Denise Crawford


Date: 5 Apr 1996
From: Ellen Cigan (ECigan@AOL.COM)
Subject: Grapes v. Raisins

I can't resist jumping into this one:

>Totally unrelated, but also worth noting:
>Sometime ago, Pepsi had a slogan, "Come alive, you're in the Pepsi
>Generation."
>which when given the treatment described above became, "Pepsi brings your
>dead relatives back to life."

One of my favorites was the Chevy Nova, which did not sell well in South America. Those of you who understand Spanish will note that "No va" means "doesn't work"!

Ellen, who proudly claims residence in Oregon, west of the Grape Divide :-)
ECigan@aol.com


Date: 5 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Grapes v. Raisins

All week the electrons flowed
spreading arguments from node to node.
To raisin or to grape
it was the main debate
Sunny in the west and in the east it snowed.

Grapes are juicy, a raisin is dry
Great was the discussion as to why
one would favor one or'e other.
Some were saying "Oh, why bother?"
Dee's last words prompt Lynn to try.

We suffer from denominational differences
the fruit we choose to match our preferences.
You eat yours and I'll eat mine
and in the end we'll all be fine.
In Iowa we will meet and mend our fences.

lynn


Date: 7 Apr 1996
From: Urban Lauren (lurban1@IC3.ITHACA.EDU)
Subject: Re: Grapes v. Raisins

> One of my favorites was the Chevy Nova, which did not sell well in South
> America. Those of you who understand Spanish will note that "No va" means
> "doesn't work"!

I enjoyed hearing about how when JFK when to Berlin, how when he meant to say "I am a Berliner" he said "I am a jelly donut"...I would try to reproduce it in German but my spelling would make it totally incomprehensible.

I can't even spell in English,
Lauren


Date: 7 Apr 1996
From: Bolstad Nan (NANBOLSTAD@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: Grapes v. Raisins

All you Oregonians out there, help me out -- Karen sent me the numbers, etc. for buying "treats" for our judges. She didn't mention RAISINS or GRAPES .

So what do you think -- just apples, oranges, or bananas? Or should we involve these Grape volunteers in the debate by RAISIN their food intake with some "Fruit of the Vine"?

Nan Bolstad


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

This is such a silly season. Competitions completing, flowers blooming, temperatures warming up, and Grape Nuts ripening.

Seeing postings from the third member of the Urban team reminded me that it is unfortunate that Dee and Bruce named their daughter Lauren. Not that Lauren isn't a beautiful name, just that had they named her Legend we would be treated to:

From: Urban Legend

Happy Birthday Lauren.
lynn


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

Lynn....

Flowers blooming???? Only in greenhouses around here!!! Temperatures warming up??? Only body temps with the exasperation of winter holding on...and on...and on!!!

It's interesting to note that the youngest Urbanette, whose name is Brooke has always wanted her middle name to be Lynn....Brooke Lynn....(being NYers we kinda like it and wish we had thought of it!!!) One of her best friends however is named Jim RAISEN (really!!!!)....she has no friends whose names are Grape....(sigh!)....but she did like the movie "Gilbert Grape!"

We had considered naming either of them Renewal....that way when applications of all sorts asked for last name first, first name last, they would be URBAN RENEWAL....of course if they were boys perhaps COWBOY would have been a better choice....

To our good friends in New Hampshire and Oregon....glad to have lightened the load for you folks when you were approaching critical mass before your tournaments...may your skies be blue and temps be warm for your tournaments ....may your judges be perfect....and may every team in your state tie for first place!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

Dee said:
> Flowers blooming???? Only in greenhouses around here!!!
> Temperatures warming up??? Only body temps with the exasperation of
> winter holding on...and on...and on!!!

It was so fortunate that you were home this past weekend rather than here. The stress would have been terrible had you been here. "Which shorts should I wear?" "DAD?! ?! Where's the sunscreen?" Why, just the smell of the jasmine drifting in thru the windows would have probably rendered you unconscious.

The neighbors were running MY airconditioner. Those of you who know me will understand. As a hint. I am in the running for the world's shortest move (46 feet).

The weatherman broke the bad news to us this morning. It will probably be cooler this week. Highs only in the 70's.

Dee, how can I tell you to chill out when you are wearing that big coat?

lynn


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

Actually Lynn.....

I am quite chilled thank you very much....however.....I note that you need artificial means (AC) to help you chill out!

Of course what can top a cozy evening by the fireplace...snuggled in with your favorite OMer??? It's why we NYOmer families are so close knit!

All that whining about which shorts to wear is something we NYers don't have to worry about....yet! But when we do it is GLORIOUS....certainly we appreciate our short summers more than you who take for granted the warmth....Lauren sent us the following thermometer annotations which she got from Godonlyknowswhere...thought you might appreciate it:

AN ANNOTATED THERMOMETER

60 -Californian OMers put on sweaters (if they can find one in their wardrobe)

50 -Miami, Florida Omers turn on the heat

40 -You can see your breath, Californian OMers shiver uncontrollably Minnesotan Omers go swimming.

35 -Italian cars don't start

32 -Water freezes

30 -You plan your vacation to Australia, Minnesotan Omers put on T-shirts, Politicians begin to worry about the homeless, British cars don't start

25 -Boston water freezes, Californians weep pitiably, Minnesotans eat ice cream, Canadians go swimming

20 -You can hear your breath, Politicians begin to talk about the homeless, New York City water freezes, Miami residents plan vacation further south

15 -French cars don't start, You plan a vacation in Mexico, Cat insists on sleeping in your bed with you

10 -Too cold to ski, You need jumper cables to get your car going

5 -You plan your vacation in Houston, American cars don't start

0 -Alaskans put on T-shirts, too cold to skate

-10 -German cars don't start, Eyes freeze shut when you blink

-15 -You can cut your breath and use it to build an igloo, Arkansas residents stick tongues to metal objects, Miami residents cease to exist

-20 -Cat insists on sleeping in your pajamas with you, Politicians actually do something about the homeless, Minnesotans shovel snow off roof, Japanese cars don't start

-25 -Too cold to think, You need jumper cables to get driver going

-30 -You plan a two week hot bath, The Mighty Monongahela freezes. Swedish cars don't start

-40 -Californians disappear, Minnesotans button top button, Canadians put on sweaters, your car helps you plan your trip south

-50 -Congressional hot air freezes, Alaskans close the bathroom window

-60 -Hell freezes over, Polar bears move south!!

Yes, it's true we in NY are still wearing our sweaters and coats....but we are a hardy bunch who brave the elements with STYLE and CREATIVITY!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Trish Uselman (trishu@TELEPORT.COM)
Subject: Re: Grapes v. Raisins

>All you Oregonians out there, help me out -- Karen sent me the numbers, etc.
>for buying "treats" for our judges. She didn't mention RAISINS or GRAPES .

Dear Nan,
Of course, we need to have both grapes and raisins. Us Oregonians are not prejudice...we support anything "healthy". Don't you think? See you Saturday!

Trish:)


Date: 8 Apr 1996 16:01:47 -0400
From: Cy Richard (Cygnome@AOL.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

why thank you dee.......

the state of New Hampshire is fast approaching the 13th..... a very lucky day for 190 teams that will be participating in our GRAPE NHOM STATE TOURNAMENTS!

expectations have been raisin', along with my blood pressure.......

finally crossed something off my list of things to do !!! all joking aside... we are really excited.... it will be a wonderful day...... and who would have thought that we would still have to worry about snow !!!!! woke up to about 6 inches this morning.... and they are predicting 2-3 more tomorrow....

i'm sure it's just the good lord gettin back at me for taking the side of the raisins !!!!!!

cy


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM )
Subject: grapes/raisins/peaches....?

Sooooooooooooooooo

All this talk of OMish fruits....

NY Grapes MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm good!
CA raisins (anyone have a toothpick?)
and, of course, GA Peaches

Are there any other OM pins associated with fruit? (I know Barbara Parris from NC would have the answer to this one....no, it's not a trivia question!!!! I don't know the answer!!!)

Take care,
Dee


Date: 8 Apr 1996 16:19:37 -0400
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

Cy....

You are undoubtedly correct about the OM Gods getting back at you....New Hampshire should by all rights be on the side of the Mighty Grape! Concord (your capital, isn't it?) was named for the Concord Grape afterall!!!!

Good luck this weekend!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Marshall Anderson (m1anders@PEAK.ORG)
Subject: Raisin cane etc

Why Cy - SNOW...you poor thing. I have had that little worry the past 3 years. but not this it was a glorious 80 degrees Easter and at least 77 today God willing it will last the week and we of the state you all think spend much of our time under water will be basking in the glorious smog free rays of Oregon Sunshine....Heaven.

Kidding aside I wish you blue skys and warm temperatures, Karen


Date: 8 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: More reasons why Grapes are better than raisins

> Well I don't know how you found out (actually I do...my parents :) )
> but thank you very much. One more year and I'll be out of the teen's
> forever.
>
> Waiting for that day,
> Legend...
> oops!
> Lauren

I think what you want to strive to be is "a Legend in her own time." This covers a lot of ground without prestaging the obvious question, "Legend in what?"

By the way, it was your Mom that blabbed to the 50 zillion people that it was your birthday and their anniversary. I hope that you all had fun together.

Oh, one other thing. Don't be in such a hurry to grow up. You will find soon enough that you have many years to be a stuffy adult. Those of us that have found OM can pretend to be kids again and get away with it but, we are not able to fully recapture our youth. :-(

(not too stuffy) lynn


Date: 11 Apr 1996
From: Allen Bill (bill@HP.COM)
Subject: pin silliness

Hi All --

Unlike our compatriots in NY (who haven't quite reached raisin- consciousness), I MUST share the goofy pins we're having made up! It started harmlessly enough with the "Raisin CRUNCH!" pin. Simple, moderately clever, very tasteful (pun intended).

We decided that we needed a "companion pin" -- so we put together a whole band of raisins with the saying "California's Raisin' Creativity" (NHOMers -- great minds work alike). It's big and visually stimulating -- but somewhat lacking in creative spark. What warmed me to it was the fact that we were able to take the "California Raisins" text and reform it into the "California's Raisin'" portion of our saying. Actually, my kids like this companion pin more than our original CRUNCH! pin -- I'll have to work on their appreciation of style vs technical competence.

In a moment of pure pin-silliness, we put together a third pin that tickled me so much I just had to have a few made up. This pin has a portly female raisin (I envision her as the raisin equivalent of Aretha Franklin -- but with her hair bleached and waved). This beauty is dressed in a pink "belle" gown, holds a peach (the same color as her hair) in one hand and a bunch of grapes in the other and has a little NHOM hat set jauntily on her head. In her parasol are the words "California's Raisin' a 'Little Belle'".

It's derivative, it's irreverent and it cracks me up every time I look at it. I only hope the final product is true to the preliminary art. We won't receive any of the pins until the week before we leave for WF. CA teams headed for WF should get a flier from the Shearers in which I've made as many of these as I can available to other teams.

Take care.
Bill Allen


Date: 11 Apr 1996
From: Bruce V. Urban (URBANBV@NYSOMR.EMI.COM)
Subject: The 'Grape' Debate - last word!

just saw this and had to share,

from T h e I n t e r n e t T o u r B u s
TOURBUS - (c) Copyright 1996, Patrick Crispen and Bob Rankin
All rights reserved. Redistribution is allowed only with permission.
Send this copy to 3 friends and tell them to get on the Bus!

   (\__/)  .~    ~. ))

   /O O  ./      .'             Patrick Douglas Crispen

  {O__,   \    {               The University of Alabama

    / .  . )    \  *NEW ADDRESS* crispen@campus.mci.net *NEW ADDRESS*

    |-| '-' \    }      http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/crispen.html

   .(   _(   )_.'

  '---.~_ _ _&                    Warning: squirrels.

-------------------------------- --------------------------------

RAISIN - Noun. Motive or explanation.
Usage: "There ain't no raisin to be actin' thatta way."
(Special thanks goes to Jeryl Geary for today's wurd)

YOU CAN FIND ALL OF THE OLD SOUTHERN WORDS OF THE DAY ON THE SOUTHERN WORD HOMEPAGE AT http://ua1vm.ua.edu/~crispen/word.html

and I will let that be my last word on the Grape / Raisin 'discussion'!

Bruce


[ All was quiet for several days. This message hit the list server on April 16, long after it was apparently posted. ]


Date: 6 Apr 1996
From: Bubba Ross (Penfold007@MSN.COM)
Subject: Beyond Raisins

I AM going to be crucified for this, but there is no possible way you could beat grapes with raisins. The REAL question is what kind of grape. In my opinion, green pitless are the winners by far. any objections?

Noam Ross, Team Leader


Date: 17 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Beyond Raisins

> I AM going to be crucified for this, but there is no possible way you could
> beat grapes with raisins. The REAL question is what kind of grape. In my
> opinion, green pitless are the winners by far. any objections?
>
> Noam Ross, Team Leader
> Beyond Raisins

Cut down that tree in the back, I've got a volunteer!

HEY BUBBA! (Sorry, I've always wanted to do that.)

Look if you are gonna be on their side, at least you can get the variety right. It is Thompson Seedless. One more time T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n S-e-e-d-l-e-s-s

Got that. Good. As a raisin lover, proponent, and defender of this small piece of turf, I have to agree with you. You see, you take a whole lot of these little Thompson guys and sun dry them and guess what you have? Raisins. Yep that is the most common variety of grape to elevate to Raisinhood.

Thank-you Bubba for pointing our way....

lynn


Date: 18 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: uh oh! here we go again!

Oh Noam.....you have done it now....just when we GRAPE lovers thought we had RAISIN to celebrate our victory in the GRAPE debate you bring the whole thing up again giving those RAISIN lovers and assorted nuts a GRAPE RAISIN to respond!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 17 Apr 1996
From: MS MYSZKA T REECK (CXVR00B@PRODIGY.COM)
Subject: Cherries

I have always felt that Michigan cherries are quite superior to grapes or raisins. You can eat them dried, or in a wine, or in a jam, or in a pastry. And they always add that extra special bit to a "Sunday" the day after OM competition.


Date: 18 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: Cherries????CHERRIES????

Myszka....

It pains me to tell you this, really it does, but the CHERRY??? is mostly pit....while the meat of it is really quite sweet and wonderful....it's the PITS! when one compares them to GRAPES!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 18 Apr 1996
From: Dee & Bruce Urban (nysoma18@NS.MORAN.COM)
Subject: SEE WHAT YOU DID!!!

Oh Bubba!!!! now you've gone and done it....

Lynn....go back out to your mailbox and wait some more....we can hold a civilized discussion here just fine without your illRAISINed input!

Grapes....Thompson or otherwise....are a wonderful fruit, what kind of sick demented soul would shrink and shrivel them before eating them? I suspect those raisin people out there in CA are suffering from Munchowser Syndrome by Proxy (sp?) they are torturing our sweet delectable GRAPES just to get attention!!!!!

Take care,
Dee


Date: 18 Apr 1996
From: Lynn Macey (lynnm@NETCOM.COM)
Subject: Re: Beyond Raisins

One more thing Bubba. It wasn't until after I replied to your posting that I noticed that you had actually posted it on April 6. I now realize that you probably really didn't want to reopen the old wounds and rub grape juice into them. With this in mind, I will put the safety back on the weapons and let it pass.

This, of course, leads me to wonder what kind of a good deal you got from your ISP (Internet Service Provider). Free messaging but they bounce all of the messages off of Pluto?

Cherries? who said cherries!?!?!?!

lynn


[ And so it ended. The participants went back to their normal pursuits and the listserver was again devoted to discussions of OM.]


Lynn Macey
lynnm@vombo.org


Copyright 1996, Lynn Macey, Last Updated - 9/26/96